The Article
The discussions took place in response to the article: “Only Homophobes Will Make It To Heaven And All Non-Homophobes Will End Up In Hell”.The article was attributed to Walid Shoebat.
Discussion with PaulF
The text of the first discussion was originally recorded here: https://disqus.com/home/discussion/walidshoebat/only_homophobes_will_make_it_to_heaven_and_all_non_homophobes_will_end_up_in_hell/#comment-3421006308The discussion was between myself Andrea Wright (https://disqus.com/by/disqus_u52jnKnZ6E/), and PaulF (https://disqus.com/by/disqus_xmVDERDvoP/) PaulF frequents the following other communities: https://disqus.com/home/forum/cherald/, https://disqus.com/home/forum/telegraphuk/, https://disqus.com/home/forum/spectator-new-www/ and https://disqus.com/home/forum/spectatorwww/
On 21 July 2017 the discussion reads as follows:
Andrea Wright to the Author of the article - (16 July 2017)
I have to admit to feeling sad that you have these opinions. I have a feeling that you'd perhaps say that they aren't your opinions, they are what the Bible says and what God says. Nevertheless, it makes me feel sadness, not hatred.PaulF to Andrea Wright - (16 July 2017)
What God says in the Bible aren't my opinions. They are the truth.Andrea Wright to PaulF - (17 July 2017)
Hello Paul,PaulF to Andrea Wright (18 July 2017)
Please could you explain why it is that you personally believe that what the Bible says is what God says and that this is the truth?
And also what it is that leads you to interpret the things that are in the Bible in the way that you do?
I ask this in the spirit of 1 Peter 3:15
".. in your hearts reverence Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence".
Thank you.
Hello Andrea.'Faith is by hearing, and hearing is by the word of God' (Romans 10:17).That is exactly how I came to believe it. By hearing it; giving my attention to it.But my faith is not only my doing. It is the work of God in me. As Jesus says, "This is the work of God, that you believe in the one whom he sent" (John 6:29).If you don't yet believe, my advice is, pray for the gift of faith. God is certainly willing to give it to you.Andrea Wright to PaulF (18 July 2017)
Hello Paul,As at 7 August 2017 there was no reply from PaulF.
Thank you for sharing that with me.
It makes sense to me that faith in something or someone can only come about by hearing about that thing or person. And I appreciate you taking the time you've given to answering my query.
I was wondering as well, though, if there was any particular aspect of what you hears or any experience that led you to believe in the truth of it?
I think I understand as well, that belief and faith could be something that God gives to people as He works in their lives,
However, in reading John 6, it seems that Jesus is saying that people do the work of God when they believe in the One that He sent, rather than the work of God is to give belief to people.
Of course that's not to say that God doesn't increase people's faith.
Anyway, apologies if I'm misinterpreting that.
I'd be interested in hearing if there were any specific things that led you to your faith.
Thank you for your patience.
Discussion with Trevor
The text of the second discussion was originally recorded here: https://disqus.com/home/discussion/walidshoebat/only_homophobes_will_make_it_to_heaven_and_all_non_homophobes_will_end_up_in_hell/#comment-3421656152The discussion was between myself Andrea Wright (https://disqus.com/by/disqus_u52jnKnZ6E/), and Trevor (https://disqus.com/by/trevorsgreene/) who maintains a journal here: http://atrevorsjournal.blogspot.co.uk/ and writes from what he describes as a Catholic-Orthodox perspective. He poses his own question on his Disqus profile: Am I a Christian or not simply because I chose to become Anglo-Catholic?
On 21 July 2017 the discussion reads as follows:
Andrea Wright to the Author of the article - (16 July 2017)
I have to admit to feeling sad that you have these opinions. I have a feeling that you'd perhaps say that they aren't your opinions, they are what the Bible says and what God says. Nevertheless, it makes me feel sadness, not hatred.Trevor to Andrea Wright - (17 July 2017)
A man sticking his johnson in another man's butt ok with you?Andrea Wright to Trevor - (17 July 2017)
A woman licking another woman's hoo-ha ok with you?
A man having his way with a horse ok?
A woman allowing a horse to penetrate her ok?
Say yes to any of the above and you are damned.
Hi Trevor,Trevor to Andrea Wright - (18 July 2017)
Thanks for that.
Is this what you believe the Bible says because you believe it to be the Word of God and the truth?
If so then I'd like to ask you the same thing that I asked Paul.
Please could you explain why it is that you personally believe that what the Bible says is what God says and that this is the truth?
And also what it is that leads you to interpret the things that are in the Bible in the way that you do?
Again, I ask this in the spirit of 1 Peter 3:15
".. in your hearts reverence Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence".
Thank you
Andrea
You failed to answer the questions.Andrea Wright to Trevor - (18 July 2017)
Hello Trevor,Trevor Andrea Wright - (19 July 2017)
First, my apologies, I'd misinterpreted your reply.
I had thought that the questions were rhetorical and had been asked in that way to indicate a list of beliefs that would lead to a person being damned.
I am, of course, happy to answer your questions with what I hope is gentleness and reverence.
Do I think it is OK for two men to love each other?
Well, it's not something for me personally, but I think it's better for people to love each other than to hate each other.
I think the way that you phrase the question is, perhaps, a little over-dramatic.
Love between two men needn't be all about "A man sticking his johnson in another man's butt". Just as marriage between a man and a woman isn't only about "A man sticking his johnson in a woman's hoo-ha". Both ought to be about love.
I think the same applies to love between two women. Not for me personally, but love is better than hate.
The sexual relationship thing with horses is illegal in the UK where I live, and I'm happy with it remaining illegal. So I'm not OK with that.
I'd be happy to provide more information on why I think this way if you're interested.
And as I said before, I'd be honestly interested if you're able to answer my questions.
Why do you personally believe that what the Bible says is what God says and that this is the truth?
And also what it is that leads you to interpret the things that are in the Bible in the way that you do?
Thanks again,
Andrea
So you answered poorly. God's Words is crystal clear on who WILL NOT enter the kingdom of heaven and He leaves no room for personal interpretation over whom will not enter.Andrea Wright Trevor - (19 July 2017)
It is why sodomites and their allies reject the Orthodox interpretation of the Scriptures and created the blasphemous "Queen" James Bible in order to justify their continuing in sins. It is why Romans 1 declared without apology "God gave them up to their own lusts," and at the end of Romans 1, St. Paul, without blinking, declared those who approved of the sodomites lifestyle were also worthy of death.
That's why people of your ilk have done more damage to Christianity because you opt to use "pick and choose" of the Scriptures to justify continuing in sins instead of adhering to how the Scriptures were interpreted by the Church through the ages.
Hi Trevor,Trevor to Andrea Wright - (19 July 2017)
Thanks for your reply.
I notice that you didn't answer my two questions.
In reading 1 Peter 3:15 I think it's saying that Christians should be always prepared to explain why they believe what they believe.
And this is all that I'm asking.
Mentioning specific verses from Scripture helps me understand what you believe, but not why you believe it.
I'm not quite sure how I've done damage to Christianity since I don't claim to be a Christian, I'm just a person that's trying to reach out and find out why you believe what you believe.
I notice that towards the end of Romans 1 Paul includes people that "have no love, no mercy" in the list of the types of people that are in trouble.
Verse 32 says "Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."
To me this seems to be talking about people who not only do these things but also approve of others doing these things.
I checked it in several different translations and they all seem to say this.
It doesn't seem to say anything about people who do not actively condemn a certain lifestyle. It's about people who adopt that lifestyle and also approve of it in others.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding this.
Either way, it would help me if you would explain how and why it was that you came to Christ.
Also, do you believe that all Scripture should be understood literally without any room for interpretation - for example the account of creation in the book of Genesis.
Thanks again for your time.
Andrea.
Why should I answer you when you appear to be sympathetic toward fags?Andrea Wright to Trevor - (19 July 2017)
Hi Trevor,Andrea Wright to Trevor - (21 July 2017) Pending
Thank you again for replying.
You asked why you should answer me.
Well, I've been looking at 1 Peter chapter 3 again. I've included verses 8 to 17 below so you can read it in context - it's taken from the New American Bible (Revised Edition), but reads pretty much the same in other translations.
In saying "Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope" it does use the word "anyone" - it doesn't say "anyone except people that you think are sympathetic toward fags".
To use your phraseology, the meaning seems "crystal clear."
So really, if you were to answer me I'd see it as an act of obedience to the Scriptures that you believe to be the word of God.
Thank you,
Andrea
The passage in full (1 Peter 3: 8-17) reads as follows:
Finally, all of you, be of one mind, sympathetic, loving toward one another, compassionate, humble. Do not return evil for evil, or insult for insult; but, on the contrary, a blessing, because to this you were called, that you might inherit a blessing. For:
“Whoever would love life
and see good days
must keep the tongue from evil
and the lips from speaking deceit,
must turn from evil and do good,
seek peace and follow after it.
For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous
and his ears turned to their prayer,
but the face of the Lord is against evildoers.”
Now who is going to harm you if you are enthusiastic for what is good? But even if you should suffer because of righteousness, blessed are you. Do not be afraid or terrified with fear of them, but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts. Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope, but do it with gentleness and reverence, keeping your conscience clear, so that, when you are maligned, those who defame your good conduct in Christ may themselves be put to shame. For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that be the will of God, than for doing evil.
Hello again Trevor,As at 7 August 2017 there has been no reply from Trevor.
At the moment I'm assuming that you either don't have an answer to my questions or that you're not prepared to answer them because you believe that I appear to be "sympathetic towards fags."
If you don't have an answer then it leaves me saddened that you aren't able to explain what it is that led you to having the beliefs that you have and yet are so vocal in expounding them.
If you aren't prepared to answer me because you believe that I'm "sympathetic to fags" then I'm saddened because it seems that you choose to be disobedient to the very Scriptures that you hold to be absolutely true in all circumstances.
The other possibility is that you haven't had the time to answer but that you will do in due course. If this is the case then I apologise unreservedly for jumping to conclusions and await your response with interest and also humility.
Thank you again,
Andrea
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